Any efforts made on my own are sure to be painfully slow, what have other people experienced in this regard.
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Unregistered(d) |
Feeling a little lost. |
Lead | |
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I am just starting out, i have read about 12 odd books over about a year and have made some genuine attempts at practice (none too lasting i admit). But the books all seem to indicate that a master is needed, and that experience is the best teacher. How is this possible in the western world, i can't imagine many true taoist masters (i.e. those of serious/total practice over decades) learning english to guide westeners or that there are many/any true western taoist 'masters'. What hope is there of truly discovering the tao with no real direction or guide? I have read that to follow the tao it is good to not read books on it, but i read that????
Any efforts made on my own are sure to be painfully slow, what have other people experienced in this regard. |
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Connor84 |
Need a Bible? | ||
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I believe that you will find after more study that there are no Tao masters, only students. If someone claims to be a Tao master they are likely pretending to be for self-gain. I have found that the more books I read on Taoism, the more I understand. What you had read on not "reading" books on Tao is most likely meant to say that there is no strict Bible for it, as Tao just "is" and is ever-changing so you cannot just memorize a book of rules or quotes and then claim to fully understand Tao. (With all my respect for the Tao Te Ching) One book that I found to be really clear and a good place to start is "365 Tao" by Deng Ming-Dao. |
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Connor84 |
365 Tao | ||
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I will leave you with one of its' pages: Inseperable The trunk is hollow. But the branches live. The void is fundamental. But the ten thousand things are diverse. Therefore, wanderers free themselves of cares. And follow Tao in great delight. The base of a tree may occasionally be hollow, yet the trunk can rise a hundred feet to support a lushly growing crown. Tao may be void, but the world has great profusion. This is because there is no seperation between void and phenomena. Therefore, Tao cannot be gained from denying the world. Void is a part of all reality and thus has tangibility. The great Tao permeates the world so that it can be studied in the world. All that needs to be known about Tao's manifestation can be known by travelling through life. All experiences are valid, for all experiences are of Tao. In all of life, the only thing that seperates from Tao is the human ego, because one places oneself before all other things. By contrast, those who follow Tao divest themselves of self-imporatance and desire for success. They prefer to follow Tao as it flows through the land. They move from place to place as they intuitively sense its direction. Feeling the divine energy, they live in its vital flow. These wanderers have glimposed the void that is in them and in all things. They delight in life but never see more than void. |
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Unregistered(d) |
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i know there is always a master of a master if thats what you mean, and in that respect everyone is a student, i just meant someone thats done it for a very long time and is proficient enough to guide someone else.
I have read another book of Deng Ming Dao which suggests a master is imperiative, (the book is about his own master) 'Chronicles of Tao'. a small and silly point - the bible isn't the only cristian work either. i also think they say not to read so as to make you appreciate the practice more than the theory, (not venerating the instructions, just the result). I am just under the impression that without a guide, self-cultivation will be a slower more uncertain route, even dangerous. Although being with the wrong one is probably even more harmful. |
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taoboy |
Re: 365 Tao | ||
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365 Tao, and the Tao Te ching are all i have ever needed during my own beginnings.
I admit, I have a friend who, while hundreds of miles away, is available to guide me when I get myself stuck in a circle, but then, she only ever tells me to 'stop thinking, stop reading and shut up', which is usually what I need telling. If I may make an observation, it seems to me that you are percieving 'becoming a taoist' as work, as a goal, as something to achieve. Perhaps if you reframed your lifestyle and your need to follow the Tao, you would see that your stuggle is not with learning the Tao, it is with your need. taoboy |
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Unregistered(d) |
hmmm | ||
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Damn, that sounds fairly reasonable.
Nice one. |
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Unregistered(d) |
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See i do need a quide
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taoboy |
Re: - | ||
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Thank you for reading,
sure follow me, I'll lead you off a cliff! |
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Unregistered(d) |
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My current life does need changing and i am probably a little consumed with that, probably struggling the wrong way. But
What about more specific taoist arts, i.e., health, diet, TCM, qi gong, I-ching, etc. If you were interested in practising some of this stuff, what would u do? If our current learnings to present day prevent us from percieving certain things or entering into proper practice, wouldn't a teacher be paramount then? I was under the impression that Taoist's of old all had masters as well? Sorry if im saying the same thing, not to many places to ask q's like this tho. |
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Prah el |
The Message Is Not The Way | ||
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But the Way may be found in the message.
I have read many books on Taoism and I continually refer to the Tao Te Ching for inspiration, but the point of all this study is that it points to the Truth and is not the Truth itself. I personally find the Tao Te Ching the most potent message which directs me to the Truths that most often "set me free". When traveling down a dark and windy road we do not stop at a road sign confusing the sign for the place we or traveling too, or the sign identifying whcih freeway your on with the freeway itself. We may learn OF the Way from many things and from many people but the Way Itself can only be with us by us being with the Way; and that is a paradox that only experience and wisdom can provide the clues to clarify the mystery. Sincerely The Emerald Jedi Prah'el Trandoshan Padawan www.shatteredequinox.com/...rando2.jpg Prah-Tay-Na-Mrah
(Realize the Force) |
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xNocturnal |
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Temp, I understand your frustrations, believe me. I've often heard of the saying "when the student is ready the teacher will come." I guess that means two seperate things (at least to me it does). First one should seriously wonder if one is ready to fully embark on the Way. And second, usually the teacher and student find one another by 'chance.' Unfortunately those 'chances' decrease dramatically in the west since Taoism is a purely Chinese way of thought. And you're right, there is no way to go anywhere without the guidance of a Taoist master because Taoism is almost entirely an oral tradition (we can change the word master with the word teacher if it makes some us here more comfortable). Some Masters/Teachers undoubtebly live here in the States, but they aren't going to go out and promote themselves, much less place advertisement ads on the yellow pages.
But have no fear! There is always a way to find the Way through a great deal of perseverance. If I were in your shoes (which I am) this is what I would do. I'd start out with martial arts. Most sects of Taoism start out with martial arts anyway. So try to find a martial arts teacher in your area that teaches Taoist base forms (Tai chi, Ba kua, Hsing I, liuhebafa are among a few). If you're really lucky, the teacher will also be a Taoist adept. Or you can ask her/him who taught these forms or if she's aware of any Taoist in the area. Another source is the Taoist Restoration Society. That's an online project that's fundraising money to restore the destroyed Taoist temples of China. They have a directory which lists places to go in all 50 states and some part of Europe and elsewhere. I hope this helps. Good luck on your quest. |
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taoboy |
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Quote: no one said that the 'teacher' had to be a Tao master, or even a follower of Tao. I hate to say this, but you need to open up to the people around you, if you can not learn everyday during everyday life, then you can not learn! |
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xNocturnal |
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My best reply to that comment is definitely "huh??"
taoboy, you've left me a little confused. Temp asked a simple question on how to follow the path of Taoist self cultivation and I answered that as best as I could. I don't see how that has any relevance to general open mindedness. |
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taoboy |
Re: ___ | ||
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OK, I don't do the 'word play' game I'm afraid, I'm not arguing, but neither am I saying that you are not open minded.
I cringe at talking about the words we use in our posts, it's the sort of distraction that has made me actually flee from realTao in the past. My point was simply that if we are open to learning from people all around us, we need not seek / hope for a teacher, for we can be open to the teachings all around. It's not really a contentious, nor original, nor modern point. taoboy |
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Supra |
Re: ___ | ||
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To add to Taoboys replay,
Every master has a master because we are all our own master. Accept this and bow to yourself. I think you just might smile. |
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taoboy |
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That's a more original idea than mine!!
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Supra |
Re: ___ | ||
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And a bow to you Taoboy
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Pakbehl |
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I think one can only be his own master, especially when it comes to Taoism. I know I would never let myself become anyone's 'leader' and I certainly don't want anyone to consider me a leader to them, because I would prefer to lead by not leading and not following. If someone wants me to be an example for them, I would want them to see me simply existing, and then I would not want them to consider me a person to be 'followed'. Just like I doubt Lao Tzu would want anyone using Tao Te Ching as a bible or anything of the sort. And on a final note, I've never read anything on Taoism that suggests to me that I need another person to guide me to following my Tao.
Never ever take me seriously, I don't want the responsibility
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Unregistered(d) |
bow to master | ||
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This discussion-string is of interest...
...I met a teacher who became a friend ...his words were similar and simple: ....'do not call me SIFU, I am not your father' ...'do not call me master, that responsibility is yours' ...'I will be your guide, and a friend you will lose' ...'bow to yourself, not to me' ...'find what you need, farm, fish, and hunt..do it all' ...'learn only whats needed' ...'don't get stuck on serious' |
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taoboy |
yeah | ||
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hi,
is there more to your story? t |
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Kanau |
Re: yeah | ||
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"365 Tao, and the Tao Te ching are all i have ever needed during my own beginnings."
Its funny, you use(d) the exact same books as myself. Personally I love 365 Tao. I'm busy a lot of the time but its nice to read something to think about each day. ![]() |
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